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Datsun Racing History in 1960's and 1970's
http://www.ozdat.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26460		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  richardc [ Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Datsun Racing History in 1960's and 1970's
Dave, NC1600, and others racing/rallying in historic classes, or planning it, are interested in evidence of the configuration of the cars that competed in that era, so any performance advantages used then can be homologated (accepted by CAMS as legitimate modifications) and used again.

Example: Currently Datsun 1600s racing and rallying in the "historic" class must use 4 speed gearboxes. Yet here is a copy of a response I received yesterday from Gordon Dobie, to my enquiry on this topic.

“The gear box question is a contraversial one. The Datsun Racing Team, of which I was Chief Mechanic at the time, ran an imported P510 SSS factory race car which had a 5 speed gear box as fitted at the factory. This car was driven by both Doug Whiteford and John Roxburgh between 1968 and 1970 as an improved production touring car. The car was identical to the ones raced in the East Africa Safari and the London Sydney Rally. As far as I am aware CAMS have not recognised this as fact but if you read the CAMS manual and do a bit of homework you should be able to get approval for the 5 speed.”

The challenge is to find evidence of the configuration that these cars were running in at that time and details of actual events they competed in that configuration. If we can get irrefutable evidence, then a case can be put to CAMS to allow these modifications as homologated options on Historic racing/rally Datsuns. Unfortunately both the drivers Gordon has mentioned are no longer alive, so we cant get their evidence directly.

Last Sunday I watched David Brown in his ex rally Datsun 1600 racing at the Winton Historic race meeting. David drove brilliantly to a faultless finish in each event, but with a 4 speed and L16 (even a Les Collins one) he doesn't have the equipment to regularly blow off 2002 BMW's and 1750 GTV Alfas -both of which can be beaten with the addition of a 5 speed box. (He did beat the 2002 in the last race).

Can any readers help provide evidence of performance enhancements used in the late sixties/early seventies races and rallies - to get our favourite cars closer to the lead in the growing Historic racing/rally categories of motor sport?
Author:  NC1600 [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Datsun Racing History in 1960's and 1970's
absolutely any information that could possibly allow an application to be put forward towards running a 5 speed would be a godsend.

One thing though is its not so much the amount of gears thats the killer its the availability of ratios. With the 4 speed you cant get any they have to be custom made and in my dealings rediculous expense thus is why i still run a stock gearbox which is the biggest handicap of the whole car that and the weight but cant do much about that it has 4 doors.

On the issue i even went to a eligibility officer and asked if was able to run a 5 speed but with fifth gear removed or locked out the gearbox would then be inspected and sealed before being put to use and was told no. This would have openened up the ratio choices as there a numerous standard sets and amongst that a few aftermarket choices too.
Author:  MYDATO [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Datsun Racing History in 1960's and 1970's
Maybe ask Baz, Stuart Wilkins and Randy for their opinions as well. I guess thats what historical racing is all about though.
Author:  82skyblue [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Datsun Racing History in 1960's and 1970's
Dont know if it helps but I have an original 510 Sports Option Parts brochure. (Japanese language)
It lists a 5 speed but it appears to be something to do with SR311. Is SR311 the roadster? Anyway, ratios are:
1 - 2.678
2 - 1.704
3 - 1.262
4 - 1.000
5 - 0.852

So, not a 1:1 5th but this may be the 5 speed they offered for 510 for some extra legs on long straights. 1st is taller and gap between 2 & 3 is similar to the Opt 2 ratios listed.
Unfortunately I dont read Japanese so cant relate what the info in the paragraph above the table for the ratios says but this is definately on the brouchure.

Cool little brouchure, has stuff like engine oil cooler kit, 30l sub fuel tank, FIA head etc so was aimed at rally cars.
Author:  richardc [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Datsun Racing History in 1960's and 1970's
I contacted Gordon Dobie and he has some encouraging info on 5 speed boxes in Historic 1600's
Quote:
Quote from Gordon Dobie re eligibility of 5 speed Gearbox in a 1600 Historic

“The gear box question is a contraversial one. The Datsun Racing Team, of which I was Chief Mechanic at the time, ran an imported P510 SSS factory race car which had a 5 speed gear box as fitted at the factoryhttp://ozdat.com/forum/posting.php?mode=reply&f=27&t=26460#. This car was driven by both Doug Whiteford and John Roxburgh between 1968 and 1970 as an improved production touring car. The car was identical to the ones raced in the East Africa Safari and the London Sydney Rally. As far as I am aware CAMS have not recognised this as fact but if you read the CAMS manual and do a bit of homework you should be able to get approval for the 5 speed.”
The above info wont do for a CAMS homologation application. What we need is details of the Improved Production Touring Car events and dates the Datsun P510SSS ran in this configuration. Any one with old records, of this, or leads, please post your knowledge so we can help our fellow Datsun historic racers and rally competitors. Unfortunately both the competitors Gordon mentions died years ago.

Anyone who can help please put up your evidence here.
Author:  Dave [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Datsun Racing History in 1960's and 1970's
82skyblue wrote:
Dont know if it helps but I have an original 510 Sports Option Parts brochure. (Japanese language)
It lists a 5 speed but it appears to be something to do with SR311. Is SR311 the roadster?
SR311 is indeed the 2000 Sports (ie the U20-engined Fairlady), which has a close-ish ratio 5 speed (very similar ratios to a "Z" box from memory)

The 5 speed from the SR311 can be fitted into a 1600 by using the bellhousing off an early 240Z gearbox (the "71A" box with a seperate bellhousing, rather than the "integral" bellhousing like the later "Z" and all other Datsun 5 speeds, ie the "71B" boxes). 240Z and 2000 sports are pretty much the same box from what I can see, but the 2000 sports isn't a "long" box like the 240Z one, so it fits into a 1600 better.

Perhaps the box in your brochure is designed for an SR311, but can also be utilised in a 510 ?
Author:  82skyblue [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Datsun Racing History in 1960's and 1970's
Thanks Dave.

Just to add to the info on the 5 spd box in the Sports Option Parts catalogue part numbers & prices some of the bits are:
32010-22055 Assy Transmission JPY140,000
30401-22010 Housing clutch JPY8000
113411-21030 Gbox mount JPY400

So they were advertised and priced with a part number on Nissan documents. Cant see CAMS problems. Also although I cant read Japanese the first word in the narrative below the photo of a 4 door 510 complete with factory wheel arch flares and 13x7 wheels is ....."FIA".

Also have an ad from an early Auto Action that John Roxburgh did for Datsun racing Team and Castrol in which he mentions upgrades he does to 1600s including a 5 speed transmission although it is not clear if he raced one like that. It sounds like the Sport Option stuff though.
Author:  richardc [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Datsun Racing History in 1960's and 1970's
The 5 speed box that was fitted to the Roxborough car was indeed a modified SR311 (Datsun 2000 Sports) five speed which, fitted with the early Zed bell housing, was a bolt in swap into the P510. These were the first 5 speeds fitted to racing and rally Datsuns in Australia, both "works" entries and privateers.

About 1971/2, the Nissan "Options 1 - 3" close ratio boxes became available from Nissan Motor Sport. These were the same externally as the above, but were fitted with a 1:1 fifth gear, giving really close ratio setups. Main difference between these three was first gear, option 3 of which was really high, for rolling starts, and the gaps between 1 to 5 were really close, to keep a highly modified engine always in the right rev range.

We now need to know details of which events Datsun 1600's ran in this configuration. Any reference to specific races in the Auto Action?
Author:  82skyblue [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Datsun Racing History in 1960's and 1970's
No. No specific mention of events for the 1600 with 5 speed unfortunately. I cant even really date it except to say that the 1200 shown on the front cover has a Vic rego, KST-008 and he says that a pair of 240Zs made it a 1, 2 in the last Safari rally.
The Sport Option catalogue has a date 1971.2. whch I take to mean Feb '72. It doesn't mention the 1:1 5th Option boxes, just 4sp Opt 1 & 2 + SR311 with 0.852 5th.
Author:  Ampol_1600 [ Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Datsun Racing History in 1960's and 1970's
Gents

This information may help. "Datsun provided an entry to the 1970 Ampol Trial as a prize to Edgar Hermann and Hans Schuller for winning that years Safari Rally. However Nissan Australia only found out weeks prior to the event when the parent company called to say the Germans were on their way. A maroon 1600SSS was taken from the Nissan fleet and sent to Bruce Wilkinson at the Datsun Rally Team workshop where the car was prepared. As the SSS was never sold in Australia parts were scrounged from all over including a complete drive train from Japan (a special competition 5 speed gearbox and two LSD’s). Whilst the engine remained standard the suspension was works Tokico with standard steel wheels fitted with Dunlop tyres". They ultimately came in equal first after overturning the car on the warm up leg." Moe details may be found in the Rally Sport Magazine when they did a full write up of the car.
Baz also ran in that even and may remember the car in detail.

The other winning car was a DS Citroen driven by Claude and Lucette Ogier, and yes I understand they are related to the Ogier currently running in the WRC.

Alan
Author:  richardc [ Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Datsun Racing History in 1960's and 1970's
Alan, tks for the history of the Datsun 1600 entry in the 1970 Ampol Trial.
A couple of good leads for the rally guys to follow up here.

Any one with similar info from circuit racing of that era?
Author:  mikka [ Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Datsun Racing History in 1960's and 1970's
I know this won't help much, but you might be able to look into this further....... :s (or you already know this) I had a conversation with a guy in the late 80's he told me he used to run 510s in the early-mid 70's (he mentioned Amaroo)... He said he ran an L18 with twin webers or dellortos...
He said he ran the engine lower and further back for better weight distribution, he also mentioned an modified sump.
Author:  richardc [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Datsun Racing History in 1960's and 1970's
Thanks Mikka
Are any of you NSW guys old enough to have info on competitors running in early 70's events for Datsun 1600 class cars at Amaroo?
Author:  LIndsay [ Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Datsun Racing History in 1960's and 1970's
Maybe Jerry Strausberg - ran a 1600 with a Datsun 2000 sports motor and gearbox.
Author:  richardc [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Datsun Racing History in 1960's and 1970's
Tks LIndsay
Any idea when Jerry ran his car, which circuits, and what CAMS category/class would he have entered?
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