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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:16 am 
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4cyl Turbo/SC James Palamara 602.9


WTF!?!? are you serious you can get those numbers off a 4?

so ARE a place to go and see.

ok well another NewB Question

"full race-prepped billet-forged bottom end" what exactly does this involve?

Also are Dry Ice Coolers road legal?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:23 am 
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Race-prepped: basically means prepared exactly to specs with no corners cut. Everything fully crack tested, balanced (that moves), block deburred, align bored, decked etc etc etc.

Forged-billet: instead of a casting in the shape of what you want being made, you get a forged lump of steel - where instead of the steel being cast and left to set, it is cast then smacked together (think blacksmith and hammer/anvil) producing stronger steel - and you grind away the bits you don't want. Ie you start out with a really big cylinder of steel for a crank and cut the shape into it.
Same for pistons/rods.

The topic of intercoolers has been discussed previously, please go have a read of it (if you can find it, otherwise its worth creating a new thread if what we talked about didn't cover it).

Dave

_________________
USA Daily: 2014 Nissan GT-R, very minor modifications for the track
USA Project: 1978 280Z, minor suspension upgrades, VK56DE conversion in progress. SOLD
AUS Race Car: 1973 240Z, L28ET, Autronic, GT35R. SOLD
AUS Project: 1972 1600, 3200km old S15 SR20DET, ground up rebuild. SOLD


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:28 am 
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hmm well everything is crack tested and balanced and the cylinders are being deburred but i am not going billet forged thats sounds a little expensive


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:48 am 
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ok, well after re reading topic i have a few more questions

A. What Components would everyone strengthen in a L28ET, not including stud kits because i will do them already let say for race prep

B. What Accesories are turbo specific (i.e because the engine has had the turbo taken off and i am now putting it back on well a bigger one anyway) injectors? dizzy? intake manifold? AFM?

C. What would be the best injector size to goto? and also the right size pump to go with

D. What is the point of a surge tank? what do i achieve by having one?

E. is there some sort of formula i can run to find out how much boost i can run on an engine?
Sorry for all the questions

Thanks


Last edited by Jbwetzels on Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:40 am 
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I can answer D.

Jbwetzels wrote:
D. What is the point of a surge tank? what do i achieve by having one?


A surge tank is designed so your high pressure fuel pump will always have fuel. It is a small container (usually 1 to 2 litres) which is filled with a lift pump. The idea is during hard cornering when the fuel is swishing around it is highly likely when you have low fuel that the pickup will at some stage have no fuel. Of course with no fuel around the pickup, the pump wont be pumping and then engine will not get fuel. Exactly what you DONT want in a turbo engine. I would say its a must for a turbo car... And if your spending $2000 on your engine whats another coulple of hundred for a decent surge tank and lift pump.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:54 am 
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i dont suppose you know how i determine what size tank i need? and also do they tank and pumps come together or do i need to figure that one out aswel?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:49 pm 
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you'll need a minimum of 1.0L for a surge tank. you can make one yourself out of mild steel barb fittings and some scrap 3in exhaust.

you'll need a low pressure pump to pull from the tank to fill the pot (holley, carter, pierburg) and a high pressure pump (bosch) to pull from the pot to feed to the engine.

here's my backyard setup

[ img ]

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:00 pm 
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was that a filter inbetween your main pump and the surge tank?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:03 pm 
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Jbwetzels wrote:
A. What Components would everyone strengthen in a L28ET, not including stud kits because i will do them already let say for race prep


Depends on your hp requirements. The yankee SCCA L28ETs were getting 600 horse, but apparently had to straighten the crank after every race, then throw it out after 3. Needless to say a new crank will set you back a bit, so failing that: rods/pistons are the most crucial, also might be worth investing in a TOMEI high-flow L oil pump too? Unless there are other options?

Jbwetzels wrote:
B. What Accesories are turbo specific (i.e because the engine has had the turbo taken off and i am now putting it back on well a bigger one anyway) injectors? dizzy? intake manifold? AFM?


AFM might be a restriction, I had just assumed you were going aftermarket programmable? In which case you'll be using a MAP sensor so get rid of the AFM. Dizzy as long as its electronic will be fine. Injectors is a function of the amount of fuel you'll need. Intercooler will need to be bigger/thicker/taller.

Jbwetzels wrote:
C. What would be the best injector size to goto? and also the right size pump to go with


Best injector size is apparently one that sits at aroung 80% duty cycle at max power (gives good spray pattern and hence atomisation). Rule of thumb is 5cc per hp. So you want 500 horsepower thats 500*5 (per cc) = 2500/6 (for each injector) = 416cc. You can get 460cc topfeeds from Gerard Baulch every now and then pretty cheap - thats what I'll be running for a while.

Jbwetzels wrote:
E. is there some sort of formula i can run to find out how much boost i can run on an engine?


Depends on the fuel you run and the temperature of your inlet charge amongst other things. There isn't really too much in the way of an accurate formula about I don't think. You will be able to run as much boost as you want until the engine detonates - the cooler the air, the higher octane, the lower the compression ratio the less likely this will be.

Dave

_________________
USA Daily: 2014 Nissan GT-R, very minor modifications for the track
USA Project: 1978 280Z, minor suspension upgrades, VK56DE conversion in progress. SOLD
AUS Race Car: 1973 240Z, L28ET, Autronic, GT35R. SOLD
AUS Project: 1972 1600, 3200km old S15 SR20DET, ground up rebuild. SOLD


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:22 pm 
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Jbwetzels wrote:
was that a filter inbetween your main pump and the surge tank?


Looks remarkably like a high pressure fuel filter to me. Good idea to have a fuel filter prior to each pump. Unfortunately I only have one before the lift pump. Not much room in the underside of a 240z let me tell you! I'll take a couple of pics soon and you can see for yourself.

Also, you obviously have the return line running to the main tank? If it was me I'd have the lift pump feed at the same level as the EFI pump outlet (on the surge tank) that way the EFI pump doesn't have to suck air for however long (if for some reason the fuel drains back into the main pump). I'd also have the return going back to the surge tank. Less reliance on the lift pump that way.

Dave

_________________
USA Daily: 2014 Nissan GT-R, very minor modifications for the track
USA Project: 1978 280Z, minor suspension upgrades, VK56DE conversion in progress. SOLD
AUS Race Car: 1973 240Z, L28ET, Autronic, GT35R. SOLD
AUS Project: 1972 1600, 3200km old S15 SR20DET, ground up rebuild. SOLD


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:29 pm 
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WOW thanks for all the info but i have a couple more questions if thats ok?

Sorry for the long post

thehelix112 wrote:

Depends on your hp requirements. The yankee SCCA L28ETs were getting 600 horse, but apparently had to straighten the crank after every race, then throw it out after 3. Needless to say a new crank will set you back a bit, so failing that: rods/pistons are the most crucial, also might be worth investing in a TOMEI high-flow L oil pump too? Unless there are other options?


Ok if i get a high flow oil pump then do i need to install thicker lines and get a larger cooler? also i have heard about alot of people getting heavy duty valve springs, is this worth it in my situation?


thehelix112 wrote:

AFM might be a restriction, I had just assumed you were going aftermarket programmable? In which case you'll be using a MAP sensor so get rid of the AFM. Dizzy as long as its electronic will be fine. Injectors is a function of the amount of fuel you'll need. Intercooler will need to be bigger/thicker/taller.


Well at the moment i dont even have the turbo on so i was planning going for the biggest A2W cooler i can fit and yes i am going for an aftermarket EMS probably power FC, will the map sensor come with it or is it a seperate purchase?

thehelix112 wrote:

Best injector size is apparently one that sits at aroung 80% duty cycle at max power (gives good spray pattern and hence atomisation). Rule of thumb is 5cc per hp. So you want 500 horsepower thats 500*5 (per cc) = 2500/6 (for each injector) = 416cc. You can get 460cc topfeeds from Gerard Baulch every now and then pretty cheap - thats what I'll be running for a while.


are those injectors just drop right in? or will i have to make a new fuel rail? also is it better to go for bigger injectors and fuel pump than need ? because this is going to be done in 3 stages to get to that HP??

thehelix112 wrote:

Depends on the fuel you run and the temperature of your inlet charge amongst other things. There isn't really too much in the way of an accurate formula about I don't think. You will be able to run as much boost as you want until the engine detonates - the cooler the air, the higher octane, the lower the compression ratio the less likely this will be.

Dave


when the engine is rebuilt i think it is being taken down to 8:1 or 7:1 (could be wrong) is it possible to bring the compression down too much or is it the less compression i have the more boost i can run?

also is it possible that when i am testing my boost limit i up the boost too much and start detonating so bad that I kill a piston or two straight away?

Cheers

Joe


Last edited by Jbwetzels on Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:39 pm 
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thehelix112 wrote:

Looks remarkably like a high pressure fuel filter to me. Good idea to have a fuel filter prior to each pump. Unfortunately I only have one before the lift pump. Not much room in the underside of a 240z let me tell you! I'll take a couple of pics soon and you can see for yourself.

Also, you obviously have the return line running to the main tank? If it was me I'd have the lift pump feed at the same level as the EFI pump outlet (on the surge tank) that way the EFI pump doesn't have to suck air for however long (if for some reason the fuel drains back into the main pump). I'd also have the return going back to the surge tank. Less reliance on the lift pump that way.

Dave


hmm thanks for the tips, it all helps, these things could have got me into alot of Sh*t down the track, i would definatley like to see those pics when you get them up


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:58 pm 
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dave,

yes, the lift pump feeds the top of the pot. i prefer it this way. my return line off the pot runs to the tank return, and the engine return line is tee'd into this line further along.

the 240C tank has the outlets at the top, so the fuel will only drain back as far as that first low pressure filter.

and Jbwetzels, dave is correct in that it is a high flow EFI filter. people reckon you should have the filter AFTER the pump to make the pump's life a little easier, but i haven't seen any evidence to the contrary so i fit it the most logical way to look after both the pump and the engine.

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The Republic of Western Australia -
Propping up the Nation's Economy since 1901.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:07 pm 
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pro240c wrote:
dave,

yes, the lift pump feeds the top of the pot. i prefer it this way. my return line off the pot runs to the tank return, and the engine return line is tee'd into this line further along.

the 240C tank has the outlets at the top, so the fuel will only drain back as far as that first low pressure filter.

and Jbwetzels, dave is correct in that it is a high flow EFI filter. people reckon you should have the filter AFTER the pump to make the pump's life a little easier, but i haven't seen any evidence to the contrary so i fit it the most logical way to look after both the pump and the engine.


it all seems to make sense


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:02 pm 
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Joe,

Jbwetzels wrote:
Ok if i get a high flow oil pump then do i need to install thicker lines and get a larger cooler? also i have heard about alot of people getting heavy duty valve springs, is this worth it in my situation?


Do you mean to imply you have an oil cooler already? Surely not standard?
The only time you would need bigger lines/bigger cooler is if the cooler isn't keeping up with the temperature demands which is unlikely I think.

You get upgraded valve springs because when the intake manifold sees positive pressure that pressure is acting on the upperside of the valves and trys to hold them open. You want to pick the valve spring rate based on the cam you want to run (less crucial for a turbo application) and the amount of boost you want to run. Ie, if you would run 100lb springs without boost but you want to run 20psi, then you run 120lb springs. :)

Jbwetzels wrote:
Well at the moment i dont even have the turbo on so i was planning going for the biggest A2W cooler i can fit and yes i am going for an aftermarket EMS probably power FC, will the map sensor come with it or is it a seperate purchase?


A lot of computers have the MAP sensor built in so you just run a vacuum line directly to the computer. I've never seen/used a power FC so I couldn't tell you. Personally (that means ignore me if you like) I think the 240z is better suited to a front-mount air/air intercooler. But thats only my opinion - obviously depends greatly what you want to do with the car.

Jbwetzels wrote:
are those injectors just drop right in? or will i have to make a new fuel rail? also is it better to go for bigger injectors and fuel pump than need ? because this is going to be done in 3 stages to get to that HP??


Almost drop in. I had to drill out the intake manifold by 0.5mm or so to get them to slide in. And yes I had to make a custom fuel rail using some fuel rail stock - aluminium extrude honed stuff. Wasn't particularly hard, but then it hasn't worked yet either :roll:

Jbwetzels wrote:
when the engine is rebuilt i think it is being taken down to 8:1 or 7:1 (could be wrong) is it possible to bring the compression down too much or is it the less compression i have the more boost i can run?


Less compression means more boost yes. But it also means sluggish off-boost performance (which in turn means it'll take longer to come on to boost). Its a balancing act. The stock L28ET is 7.4:1 which is extremely low for a factory engine (and off boost, it feels it!). Personally, with decent fuel/intercooler/turbocharger/computer I wouldn't be going down to 7.4. I plan to build my L28 with around 7.8:1.

Jbwetzels wrote:
also is it possible that when i am testing my boost limit i up the boost too much and start detonating so bad that I kill a piston or two straight away?


Trick i got told by a track racer in NZ is to get some copper pipe, beat the end flat, drill hole in it, and bolt it to the block. Then put some garden hose over the end and run the hose into the engine bay so you can listen to EXACTLY what the engine is doing. He said when tuning it was clear as day listening down the hose, but you couldn't hear anything outside. If you run forged pistons its unlikely you will destroy a piston straight away, you'd have to be unlucky to destroy a cast one straight away too.

Aslong as you keep an ear out while your engine is being tuned and make sure it doesn't, you should be ok.

Dave

_________________
USA Daily: 2014 Nissan GT-R, very minor modifications for the track
USA Project: 1978 280Z, minor suspension upgrades, VK56DE conversion in progress. SOLD
AUS Race Car: 1973 240Z, L28ET, Autronic, GT35R. SOLD
AUS Project: 1972 1600, 3200km old S15 SR20DET, ground up rebuild. SOLD


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