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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:54 pm 
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256fqq wrote:
if anyone has flanges to measure...if possible to post some measurments

spline dia for :
5x1 flange
3x2 flange

thanks
anyone can help with above?.....

dunno if anyone has read this..
http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=114798

a great read


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:12 am 
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you know theres more than one type of 3x2 flanges...
Be more specific.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:23 am 
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no i didn't......early and late?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:36 pm 
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nick wrote:
dr30 cvs are same as Z31/HR31 NA which is three pairs of two bolts sort of like (but 10-11mm larger than) R30 Skyline cv's.

Ive got both dr30 and r30 on my bench atm and that cv is different to them.


Last edited by nick on Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:20 pm 
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well if anyone could post dia , what its from that would be of help...
on the z forums in the states (trying to find) a 280zx 6x2 stub axle flange fitted straight onto a 1600 stub...
i have 4 bolt cv's and will be using hr31 4 bolt stubs thru my arms...... i found a bearing that fits..


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:43 pm 
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If you are using 4bolt flanges and stubs why do you want 6bolt (3x2) measurements?

Pretty sure ive still got a couple different 6 bolt flanges/stubs at home, if its really needed i could check those (R30 and DR30/Z31 i think)...


Updated*
MR30 were 26mm x 25spline.
DR30 were 28mm x 26spline.

I know for a fact that Z31turbo 4 bolt flanges interchange with DR30.
So there seems to be two different sizes in these types of nissan.
Models that have 25 splined hubs and ones that have 26splines.

-Aussie R30/MR30/1600/180b/200B/jdm Bluebird910/etc have the 25spline.
-DR30/HR31/Z31/ etc have the larger 26spline. (S12 the same?)


Last edited by nick on Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:36 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:41 pm 
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buddy...i'm just trying to help out....
i've got my sh*t sorted....
don't worry i guess...


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:17 am 
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Attachment:
[ attachment ]
Inboard R180 Inner Side Flange CV.jpg [ 383.21 KiB | Viewed 2586 times ]
Here's a couple of options worth considering:

I am currently using R180 long nose LSD with Nissan 720 front diff axle flanges and my own 6061-T6 adaptor plates. See photo of inboard adaptor.
Outboard I am using my own adaptor with Z31 turbo 4-bolt flange. See photo of (squarish) outboard adaptor.
Both axles are WCR R200 LHS, which are needed to give me correct axle length: I am using modified 240K trailing arms.
Both my adaptors are significantly stronger than WCR ones. However, the weakest links are the R180 flange axle (inside the diff) and the six bolts going through each CV and into the alloy adaptor plates, even though these go into helicoils. Regardless, I do not envisage any problems. My L18 stroker (2.3 litre) EFI naturally aspirated engine puts out 200Hp, much less than the drag racing monsters some are trying to tame.

Note: I am using Gr12.9 bolts to attach the CVs. Every bolt is fitted with both a flat washer and spring washer. I am not using Loctite, because it is extremely hard to assemble these CVs without getting some Moly grease on the threads. Bolts come loose for three reasons: they stretch (this is virtually impossible in this application for Gr12.9 bolts), the helicoils fail (again unlikely if installed correctly and bolts are installed as described here) or they unwind under load/vibration especially if grease has infiltrated the threads or under the washers during assembly. Vibration is the most likely cause bolts coming loose - likely if there is a problem with lubrication of the CV. Bolt heads are cross drilled and lock-wired (not all done at time photos were taken, but done subsequently with 0.032" lock wire). Where bolts go into 6061-T6 aluminium alloy with helicoil inserts, they are torqued to 23ft.lb before being lock wired. Lockwire does NOT provide torque to stop bolt coming undone in the first instance, that is the role of the spring washer. However, lockwire will stop the bolt unwinding only once it has started to come loose. Where bolts go into steel, they are torqued to 30ft.lb.

If I ever decide to install an engine with greater power output, my step-up option is to use R200 long nose diff fitted with S15 helical LSD centre and GTR 6-bolt (evenly spaced) output flanges that have been machined and 6-holes tapped for directly fitting Porsche-type CVs (already completed and ready to go when needed). Bolts (M8 x 1.25 Gr12.9) go straight into the modified GTR output flange, which is all steel. The other end is Z31 turbo 4-bolt with my custom adaptor plate, which I am considering to have machined in CrMo 4130 alloy steel, though this is unlikely to be necessary. The alternative is to use Z31 (non-turbo) 6-bolt axle flange which means I can use the same adaptor as I am currently using inboard. Downside of the R200 upgrade is that I have to make two custom-length axles: left and right will be different lengths. If I go down this path, at the same time I will change to HR31 trailing arms and coilovers, using Z31 axles as I have installed in the 240K trailing arms.


Attachments:
[ attachment ]
WCR LHS R200.jpg [ 341.84 KiB | Viewed 2551 times ]
[ attachment ]
Inboard W_axle.jpg [ 341.45 KiB | Viewed 2573 times ]
[ attachment ]
Z31 Turbo Flange Adaptor.jpg [ 437.62 KiB | Viewed 2573 times ]

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Last edited by AlanDatsomefun on Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:16 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Now this is some classy $hit. Well thought out and elegant design.
I'd really like to see some more photos of this Alan.
Great job on this.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 12:51 pm 
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Thanks. I'm continuously amazed by how many different ways there are to modify these little Datsuns.
Some photos have been uploaded under another thread relating the R31 rear disc brake track width.
See R200 long nosed LSD I have prepared as upgrade path for the future, with modified GTR axles. The centre I have used is a Gleeson-Torsen (helical) one, but you could use one of the many clutch types available, provided you know for sure that the GTR axles fit the LSD centre. Yes, the axle flange has to be trimmed down otherwise it will foul the underside of the car and/or the moustache bar (Datsun 1600).
To be completely sure that this will handle as much torque as the axle shaft, I plan to change the design slightly by drilling out the threaded holes (8.0mm) in the flange and having holes through instead. The CV joint will be held in place by bolts going right through to a CrMo steel alloy ring with six threaded holes. Also, I plan to use dowel pins to ensure the ring cannot move relative to the flange axle. This will be installed on the diff side so the whole thing bolts up tight with Gr12.9 bolts. Each flange axle will have to come out to install the ring, of course.

NOT "Double Shear" : Incorrect use of the term ... the bolts being in "double shear". This comment was made by somebody else earlier in this thread. The best arrangement is to have the head end of the bolt passing through the CV, then through the flange with the threaded end screwing into the threaded steel ring. Technically, this would be double shear only if the ring and the CV were fixed together (that is, being one piece) and unable to move relative to each other with the flange able to slide in between. THIS WOULD NOT THE CASE: SUCH WOULD BE HIGHLY UNDESIRABLE.

The clamped arrangement with CV/Flange/Ring being individual components clamped together with high tensile bolts is going to be very strong because CV and the ring are very stiff (practically inflexible) with the flange being comparatively less stiff. There will be massive frictional forces between the clamped parts: when tightened, the bolts will be in tension (only) with shear loads taken up by the friction at the interfaces between CV/Flange and Flange/RIng. When the parts are firmly clamped together by the bolts being fully tightened (e.g., 30ft.lb for M8x1.25 Gr12.9 bolts threaded into steel), there will be NO SHEAR LOAD taken by the bolts ... however, it would be a very different story if the bolts were loose or to become loose.


Attachments:
[ attachment ]
Bolt in Double Shear.jpg [ 61.82 KiB | Viewed 2551 times ]
[ attachment ]
GTR axle.jpg [ 347.3 KiB | Viewed 2573 times ]
[ attachment ]
R200 Side Flange.jpg [ 318.16 KiB | Viewed 2573 times ]

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Last edited by AlanDatsomefun on Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:50 pm, edited 39 times in total.
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:14 pm 
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Yes, very neat Alan, as usual.
I’m intrigued by how you have determined the bolt torque value for the various applications.
How do you calculate this?
Cheers
Mick


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 9:56 am 
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Mick,
We very often incorrectly tighten fasteners: small bolts - overtightened; large ones - not tight enough. Even when an engineer has calculated the correct torque for us we tend to rely too much on having a "calibrated wrist", rather than using a torque wrench. Calculating torques for the correct tightening of fasteners is a science in its own right. You could start with MIL-STD-H28/A, but seriously there are some very good resources on the Internet: for example search "tightening torque for bolts calculation" or "clamped flange design" or go to the fastener manufacturer guidance. If you are using a particular fastener like ARP, they have excellent customer service and once you tell them exactly the conditions under which you are using their fastener they are very happy to tell you what they know works from experience (long after somebody did the initial theoretical calculations). I recently asked ARP about the correct interference fit of a 8xxxx series CrMo stud in an 6061-T6 alloy brake hub and they came back to me in a day or so with the exact details for the particular sized stud pressed into the aluminium alloy: result = zero problems in service. Flanged joints using high tensile bolts, threaded inserts in alloy materials that are relatively easily deformed are particularly complicated. It's best to imagine that every component involved is actually a spring with its own stiffness, some being stretched others being compressed: springs that are over-stretched, compressed solid or loose are all useless. The aim is to have every spring with just sufficient pre-load (tension or compression) on it to keep everything together firmly under all operating conditions. The joint must be designed so that "plastic (permanent) deformation" does not occur either during assembly or in service.
Alan

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Last edited by AlanDatsomefun on Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:01 pm 
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Thanks for the info Alan, I will check out your reference.
I’m a structural design engineer, generally working in the construction industry.
I’ve never looked at torqueing of bolts but have looked at tension in bolts due to the initial bolt torque + imposed actions from the structure.
I could see specifying bolt torque values was a bit of a black art as they would vary by materials as well as assembly procedures and, probably many other things.
It just got me thinking.

Cheers
Mick


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:59 pm 
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IMHO, by far the best "off the shelf" CV axle set-up for Datsun 1600 is that now offered by MDR Automotive, http://www.maddat.com.au. Axle kits are designed to be compatible with R180 LSD out of STi WRX (preferably mechanical LSD type with plates or, if you prefer, Quaife have a Gleeson-Torsen R180 115mm LSD centre with circlips) or long nosed R200. For both R180 and R200 set-ups CV axles push in and are held by circlips. They have much better splines and quality CVs. Yes, they are expensive, but this really is a case of ... "you gets what you pays for!"

Well done to Scott and Paul at Maddat!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:22 am 
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AlanDatsomefun wrote:
IMHO, by far the best "off the shelf" CV axle set-up for Datsun 1600 is that now offered by MDR Automotive, http://www.maddat.com.au. Axle kits are designed to be compatible with R180 LSD out of STi WRX (preferably mechanical LSD type with plates or, if you prefer, Quaife have a Gleeson-Torsen R180 115mm LSD centre with circlips) or long nosed R200. For both R180 and R200 set-ups CV axles push in and are held by circlips. They have much better splines and quality CVs. Yes, they are expensive, but this really is a case of ... "you gets what you pays for!"

Well done to Scott and Paul at Maddat!
Alan

Looks like we are neighbours. :)

Great info!!

I have looked at the maddat x member and it appears pretty solid. I dont suppose you have any idea of how it compares to other products on the market? I guess at the end of the day it just comes down to how much adjustment there is, in what plane (toe, track and/or camber) and how easy it is to do said adjustment?

Cheers

James


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