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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:20 pm 
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Location: Western Suburbs, Victoriaaaaaaa
I've had a search and found lots of people doing this, and lots of nice pics but im still hazy about how I'd actually go about things

At the moment I'm rekindling interest in ye old 510 by painting it a sex spec matte black. Now I'd love to do it properly but the reality at the moment is I don't have the money or the room to do it like that.

So what I'd like to do is still remove mostly everything, strip most panels back to baremetal, treat (not remove) rust to hold it at bay for a while, then primer her up and do a basic backyard job of a recolour. I don't expect it to be perfect, in fact I reckon it'll look better if it was obviously not perfect :D The plan is that some years down the track when I've got room-a-plenty I'll do it properly and strip it all back and weld in new panels to remove rust and get a nice proper paintjob done.

But I'm not too sure about some details of what I want to do right now.

Firstly, I know plenty of people have their methods of stripping panels and chassis, but short of sending things away to be media blasted (and dipped for that matter), what can I do? I'm guessing an appropriate paint stripper then attack it with a wirewheel? I've got an angle grinder that does the trick with much tougher components (swaybars, engine mounts) but will panels hold up alright? Any particular material wire wheel I need, I've been using brass I think, but that's a pretty harsh type

Secondly, rust treatment. I realise I'm delaying the inevitable and that rust truly is like cancer. So is treating a stupid idea and I really should just cut it out and weld in new bits? I'm intending to do it that way some years from now, this matte black idea is largely temporary. The body is actually pretty good, no apparent holes or severe rust. Surface rust on the firewall and in the boot is very obvious but i don't see any chunks missing or anything. Mind you I havent taken the carpet out to look at the floor yet. Also what would I use to treat rust? Will a special primer do the trick for the timebeing or do I need something tuffer?

Thirdly, door/window/boot/etc seals are stupid expensive for 1600's (expected, but I'll be damned if I'm paying a grand for a few poxy bits of ****in rubber), are there alternatives? El cheapo spec works quite well for me. I'd probably give in and end up spending on the proper stuff years from now when I do the bodywork properly but for now there's no chance im doing that.

Fun and games it is, thanks for any help 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:26 am 
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Location: Melbourne Sth East
Hey,

If your not planing to get the car blasted and want to use paint stripper, I have found the best method is to:

Pull the car apart and do it a section at a time (Ie - gaurd/door/bonnet etc), and mask up the shell into different sections.
Use heavy (eg 36g) paper to rough up by hand the paint to be stripped, a whole bunch of deep scrathes into the paint you want. This is to allow the paint stripper to work its way in.
Liberally apply paint stripper, and put plastic over the top of that and leave it for 10mins or so.
Scrape of paint, wash with water, re-apply stripper repeat.

Its messy work, so some throw away sheets on the ground where you are working will help. Wear gloves.

Hit bare metaled panels with etch primer.

And yes, cut rust out and replace with new metal, its basically the only way.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:56 am 
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Do I detect a lot of work looming here??

OK, first up, there are not many panels that are removeable on a 510.
The obvious ones are, bonnet, boot doors and air plenum cover.
The only other ones are probably where most of your corrosion hassles will be, the front guards.

To remove the paint at home, chemical stripper is the cleanest and dust free way as mentioned above.

After the paint stripper, you can use a 3M Clean'n'Strip wheel.
This is like a huge circular scouring pad that you mount to an angle grinder.
Light pressure, slow speed and keep it moving over the panel or you will heat up the steel too much and it will buckle.
This method will get the panels back to bright shiney bare steel, just ripe for fresh rust :roll: :roll:

As for rubber kits, some fit better than others.
Try and save all the old rubber seals so when you get replacements you can compare the profiles.
My new boot seal was too large in cross section and the boot was not flush with the body when it was closed.

Once you identify where your rust problems are, then we can be a little more specific with what to do with it.

If you send the panels out for treatment, Soda Blasting is the current technology for that.
It will strip right back to bare metal and leave an INACTIVE surface which can be left uncoated for some time.
http://www.sodablast.com.au/main.php?page_name=Home

There is no rust treatment like cutting out the rotten bits and welding in fresh new metal 8)
There is a product on the market called POR, Paint Over Rust.
It isn't cheap, it appears to be effective, BUT, I have a problem with painting over rust :shock:
If it is a perforated panel, it needs to be surgically removed and a replacement welded in.
If it is surface rust it needs to be scrubbed off with the 3M wheel then treated with Metal Prep. [Phosphoric Acid], primed and painted.
So what's left for the POR to do??
Apart from lighten your wallet :? :? :?

Oh, and if you think you've got some work coming up, check out the restoration I'm doing on my '65 Datsun Fairlady.
What FUN :shock: :shock: :shock:
http://nissanman.shutterfly.com/action/ ... 562ce7659e

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Just trying to help...
http://nissanman.shutterfly.com/
graemes@internode.on.net


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:53 pm 
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Both of the threads above contain excellent info, here's my 2c as well.

I use the Clean'n'Strip wheel, it is excellent. I also use a wire wheel in the angle grinder which is pretty good too. You can use the smaller wire wheels that go in a drill, but they wear out pretty quick. (I've also worn out two cheap drills :roll: )

Best results are if you use paint stripper, then use the wire wheels on any paint residue soon afterward - the paint stays soft-ish for a while and is easily removed. DON'T use wire wheels until all traces of paint stripper are removed from the panel, or you'll fling little bits of stripper about with the wire wheel - usually in a spray across your face, which results in a quick run to the nearest tap to stop it stinging and burning your face :oops: Wax and grease remover will clean paint stripper off panels really well, and you don't have to worry about water causing any surface rust on the freshly stripped panel.

I also try to avoid stripping the last few millimeters around holes in panels (holes for doorlocks, wires, etc) If you strip right up to holes, you tend to get paint stripper around behind the hole as well, and this area may not get repainted and is a candidate for rust starting again. I just use the wire wheel to remove this last bit of paint.

I use POR in quite a few areas. Its expensive, but it does go a long way. Its convenient too, as it can be brushed on which saves having to get the spray gear out, then clean it afterwards. I just use cheap paintbrushes and toss them after one use. I don't use it to paint over rust (which is either ground back or cut out), but like it on areas that may be succeptible to rust like windscreen surrounds, holes for trim clips, etc. It is extremely hard when cured and sticks to the substrate like, well, you know what. I've been painting the leftovers on my rotisserie - straight over rust, scale and stuff - and you can belt it with a hammer and it doesn't chip or come off. Sorry to sound like a salesman - I just really like it.

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1970 ex Group A Rally P510
1971 P510
1972 180B SSS
1965 SP310 Fairlady
1966 SP311 Fairlady


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:25 pm 
Hmmm whats the catch with the soda blast thing, it jst sounds a bit too good to be true :? does anyone know how much the equpitment cost or where to get it?? can you set it up with an aircompressor jst like sandblasting?? it looks good but as i say im sceptical how no one mentions any downsides to it....... and im not one for paying others to do my work for me so wouldnt mind getting some gear to do it myself


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:44 pm 
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Location: Western Suburbs, Victoriaaaaaaa
Nice one, just the advice i was after

So if I hit it with some paint stripper a few times, use a certain 3M product to clean her up good, then finish it with wax and grease remover I'll have a fresh panel ready for some etch primer?

For surface rusted panels (my firewall as it currently is, for example), I'll need to paint strip the entire area (rusted bits or no), hit the rusted bits nice and hard with an appropriate wire wheel, hit surrounding areas with the 3M wheel as needed, then finish it with wax and grease remover and THEN it's ready for etch primer?

How's future rust prevention go, Metal Prep was mentioned which I'm assuming is a product that mainly uses the effects of phosphoric acid, or is it just phosphoric acid itself? What's it all about, just primer type stuff you paint over or?

How do you fellas go for tricky bits too, like those recesses in the top of the firewall and down behind the rear quarters (interior wise)?

That soda blasting looks pretty damn good, also looks expensive :lol:. Will have to look into that methinks, see how much lighter they feel like leaving my wallet before considering. They seem to charge at an hourly rate, so provided that rate isnt ridiculous, it doesnt look like it'd take long to strip an entire car... interesting stuff

That fairlady looks like fun :shock: it'll look damn good when done though thats for sure!

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1972 P510
1979 620


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:12 pm 
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lol that guest post earlyer was me, donno why i wasnt signed in hmm weird and to add to what vc3 was saying id love to know how to sand back some of the hard to get places e.g. inside the door where the outer and inner sheet of metal come close together and you cant fit any sand paper or anything in there and that tends to be the bit that rusts too :evil:

the fairlady looks awesome hats off to that :P here is somthing similar.. you might call me a trator here but my mates are into toranas so i found this guy who does some insane restos

http://gallery.oldholden.com/Streetneat ... st+Monaro/


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:00 pm 
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Location: Western Suburbs, Victoriaaaaaaa
Rang sodablast for the going rate for blasting a car shell and panels

The blokes come out to you with their trailer and blast away at whatever you want them to really

Going rate was $1600 for exterior panels (doors, boot, bonnet, front quarters, roof etc) and enginebay, and $2400 for exterior panels, enginebay, underbody, and interior. Outside of my budget so not an option. Paint stripper and wirewheels for me :D

The guy who does it in victoria is in Geelong

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:06 pm 
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Dude - $2400?? You would be able to buy your own sandblasting setup for that much!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:12 pm 
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bob260 wrote:
Dude - $2400?? You would be able to buy your own sandblasting setup for that much!
Is it the same process using the same setup to sand blast as to soda blast? How available are large amounts of the soda? Would be cool if you could do it yourself.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:31 pm 
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I have made some enquiries about the DIY aspect.
I already have a small grit blasting cabinet and a couple of guns.
It appears that the same tools will work for soda media OK.
The garnet sand I buy is about the same $ I have been quoted for bulk Bicarb. Soda which is specially made for this purpose.
The soda is $76 for a 25Kg bag, and according to the guy I emailed, it can be used 4-5 times before it becomes ineffective.
http://www.burwell.com.au/default.asp?id=1
The go for a car body or large parts would be to build a tent out of plastic sheet and blast away inside.
When you are done you can then sweep up the soda for re-use.
I used this technique with garnet and it worked fine.
Goggles, face mask etc. are essential.
Yes, you can DIY but, be warned, it is a filthy, messy, time consuming task, so makes your choice :roll: :roll:
I would be using it dry and I'm limited to 100psi so I have yet to see how cost effective it is.
It is safer than garnet and like most people, I really can't afford to have the crew in @ the rate they charge :shock: :shock:
I intend to give it a go, so when I have something to report, I'll let you know.
An alternative way to go may be to transport your bits to a blaster who has a fixed booth and does soda blasting.
Still looking for that facility :?
I have a shop that has done a heap of grit blasting for me so I'll check him out soon.

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Just trying to help...
http://nissanman.shutterfly.com/
graemes@internode.on.net


Last edited by Nissanman on Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:01 pm 
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Pretending soda is like the sand you'd use for blasting, how far would 25kg of the stuff get you before you'd have to sweep it back up and use it again?

Wouldnt be too bad just to use for the tricky bits perhaps, rather than a whole car

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1972 P510
1979 620


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:23 pm 
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NOW your catching on!
The soda [or garnet] is indispensable for the hard to get to areas, absolutely :wink:
I treated the air plenum area [that big air box ahead of the windshield] on my '73 240Z for rust with it and it was brilliant :D
I'm guessing that 25Kg of soda will be a lot more in quantity than garnet which is VERY dense.
You could probably do a whole body with one lot if you just kept to the bits that your 3M wheel couldn't get into.
Maybe an hour or so before you needed to recover the soda :)
I have a lot of panels that have surface rust on them so I will try to clean them up as well.
If it is not working, I'll just go back to the 3M wheel, I know that does it but with a bit more effort and care :wink:
As for wire wheels, I haven't found any of those that really impress me.
Sure, I have some and use them, but they just don't clean up, they tend to polish.
The beauty of soda is that when it is finally KAPUT, you can sweep it up and pour it down the drain :)
And you Grandma will be very impressed with you using Bicarbonate of Soda to do things on your automobile :D :D
Quote:
Hmmm whats the catch with the soda blast thing
Well, our friends in the Good 'Ol U S of A came up wih a real safe effective and reasonably cheap way of renovating that grand ol' lady, the Statue of Liberty.
Soda blasting the external skin :wink:

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Just trying to help...
http://nissanman.shutterfly.com/
graemes@internode.on.net


Last edited by Nissanman on Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:51 pm 
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Great, more excuses for more power tools :D DIY soda is starting to look pretty gooood

At this stage its only another thing to look into though. I've never even seen a sandblaster before :shock:

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1972 P510
1979 620


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:00 am 
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Well, it's not just the tube and handpiece, you are going to need a big sucker air compressor to handle the air consumption :shock:
That is around $1000 :roll:
So, you need to weigh up the costs.
Do I pay some crew to blast my car for $X or do I set myself up for $Y :?

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Just trying to help...
http://nissanman.shutterfly.com/
graemes@internode.on.net


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