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Need a no-BS answer. (610 180B) + (r31 strut) = ?
http://www.ozdat.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21834		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  burubado [ Thu May 13, 2010 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Need a no-BS answer. (610 180B) + (r31 strut) = ?
There is so much bullshit and hearsay in the datto community it's hard to determine what is fact and what is fiction.

I've found that there are a lot of closed minded people who will swear black & blue that something doesn't work until it's been done by a bunch of people then they suddenly change their tune.

I want a straight forward answer without any guessing etc.

Can anyone tell me, fitting r31 coilovers in a 610, are there any issues?
As far as I can tell, they will lower the car more, but that's really the only difference.

If anyone can provide factual information please do! :D

I've found some coilovers for aus r31. If they will fit no worries it will be an easy upgrade.

Thanks! <3
Author:  SIX-TEN [ Thu May 13, 2010 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a no-BS answer. (610 180B) + (r31 strut) = ?
i know exactly where you're coming from dude, hence why sometimes its a good idea to speak to ppl like Baz who have had the experience with such stuff.

as far as I know what you have mentioned is true but they also have different hub offset hence why these struts take up + offset wheels, if you were to fit these for example on my car which has 15x8 0 offset they will no doubt be pushed out and have the wheels stick out of the wheel arches, then needing torana styled flares!!!

IMO there are plenty of other options when it somes to this, you could grab a 240K or 200B strut and do the hilux or as we now know the 4 pot BMW brake combo, DS even sells bare 200B struts with the coilover collar already on them. the only other advantage of using the R31 struts is that you can run the GTR 4 potters on the front or Z32 calipers which are just as big.

IMO call Baz :thumbsup:
Author:  MYDATO [ Thu May 13, 2010 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a no-BS answer. (610 180B) + (r31 strut) = ?
Only BS if you read too much forum dribble, rather than asking people who know for sure. Or just pull your finger out and give it a go yourself. Then do a write up on it.
Author:  Dave [ Thu May 13, 2010 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a no-BS answer. (610 180B) + (r31 strut) = ?
Assuming they are R31 coilovers (ie fitted with adjustable coilover sleeves), they should fit in a 610. If still fitted with the stock R31 springs and spring seats, you will need to remove the spring seats and weld on 1600 / 180B style ones - the R31 ones are huge and offset, so they don't fit inside a 1600 / 180B strut tower.

They don't neccessarily lower the car, its just that the car can be lowered more with the R31 struts (although that is a function of having adjustable coilovers / where you weld the new spring seat on). The strut bodies are a lot shorter than 180B ones, so you can lower the car more before it hits the bump stops.

I'm not 100% sure about whether the R31 hub pushes the wheel out more. The reason Datsport recommend using it is because the strut tube is set further back (inwards) on the bottom casting for the axle assembly. So, all other things being equal, you can fit a wheel with larger +ve offset without the tyre hitting the strut tube (useful to keep tyres under the guards when using the wider 200B-based Datsport kit).

I have samples of 180B and R31 struts at home, might have a measure in the next day or so to confirm.
Author:  Dave [ Thu May 13, 2010 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a no-BS answer. (610 180B) + (r31 strut) = ?
Allright - had a measure tonight. It was done standing up a ladder in the semi-darkness of the roof of the shed, so may be slightly inaccurate but should be close enough for the purpose of this thread.

R31 strut assembly will push the wheel out by only about 4mm compared to a 180B strut. This is a standard R31 strut / hub compared to an early-style 180B SSS strut / hub. Datsport don't use the R31 hub on their top-end struts, so thaere may be a difference there. I can check that also if you like, but will need to drag the struts down from the shed roof, remove the R31 hub, and install the datsport-style hub setup to do so.

Anything else you want measured, let me know and I'll do my best.
Author:  Boyracer [ Fri May 14, 2010 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a no-BS answer. (610 180B) + (r31 strut) = ?
Dave, before you get all tape measurey. I've got CAD drawings of R31, 240K and RA40 struts, S12, R31 and I think 240K hubs.
Also got the 280ZX steering arms drawn up.

The only drama I've heard with the R31 struts is they were originally intended as zero scrub. I haven't fully investigated what issues this does and doesn't cause. I think if you were to use R31 struts with standard arms and standard strut tops, you my end up with less camber than standard, but haven't confirmed.
The S12 hub is where it's really at, that gives you more disc options, though I'm pretty sure the S12 hub will fit on 240K struts, but then 240K struts are getting old and worn.
The other thing going for the R31 strut is that the insert length matches a Koni Adjustable (not available for every size). So if you use 240K struts, you'll be using the same insert as you would for an R/Z31, but you'll need spacers or cut the tube to make it up.

Otherwise everything else mentioned is spot on.
Author:  mikan_orange [ Fri May 14, 2010 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a no-BS answer. (610 180B) + (r31 strut) = ?
This might be handy for you.

http://www.ozdat.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &view=next

R31 struts + S12/BB hubs have the same dimensions as S12 struts & hubs but a different tube length. I'll get around to adding some more combos to it one day.
Author:  Dave [ Fri May 14, 2010 10:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a no-BS answer. (610 180B) + (r31 strut) = ?
Not sure about fitting R31 hubs on 240K struts, but the 240K struts are long beasties - the same length as 1600 / 180B struts, so you loose the benefit of better "lowerability" (unless you shorten them as mentioned).
Author:  burubado [ Fri May 14, 2010 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a no-BS answer. (610 180B) + (r31 strut) = ?
Thanks for the awesome answers! Isn't it nice when there's no crap? lol

4mm more out isn't an issue for me. I'm running 14x7 with -14mm offset which is not really enough for me. I'm planning on getting wider and more -ve offset wheels (or get outers spun) anyway as I am planning on using bolt on flares in the future.

less camber is ok - I'm going to be using camber tops which will rectify that.

I will be using a coilover setup, so the spring seat doesn't affect me

With the hub discussion, does anyone know if i can use the 180B hub on the r31 coilover? I may just need to give it a go i guess..

six-ten, not keen on running big brakes - they won't fit behind my 14s and i don't want larger wheels otherwise the car will look like a caricature. haha

Thanks again!
Author:  Dave [ Fri May 14, 2010 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a no-BS answer. (610 180B) + (r31 strut) = ?
To answer your question about 180B hubs fitting on R31 struts, we would need to know what type of 180B struts you have.

Early 180B's used the same hub / brakes as a 1600, later ones used different struts / hubs / brakes with a larger axle.

I don't have any late 180B hubs to check for you, all my 180B stuff is early.
Author:  Dave [ Fri May 14, 2010 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a no-BS answer. (610 180B) + (r31 strut) = ?
Boyracer wrote:
The only drama I've heard with the R31 struts is they were originally intended as zero scrub. I haven't fully investigated what issues this does and doesn't cause.
At the risk of getting into conjecture, I've always thought the idea behind the R31 strut was that by offsetting the strut tube inwards on the stub axle you could fit wheels with a larger +ve offset without the tyre hitting the strut tube.

This would then reduce the amount of scrub ? ie the extended centreline of the strut tube would go thru the centre of the tyre's tread contact patch on the road ?

I guess more angle on the axle would achieve the same thing, but in a different way (by "tipping" the wheel outwards at the top and inwards at the bottom). I haven't actually checked the angle on the strits I have.
Author:  burubado [ Fri May 14, 2010 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a no-BS answer. (610 180B) + (r31 strut) = ?
I don't want more +ve offset wheels, but I am planning on getting wider wheels in the future and more clearance would be nice to have.

I have a later model, but my strut tops are not offset so I assume that at some stage a strut's been damaged and they have replaced both with early models and not realised the tops were different. Most logical explanation I think.

I guess I'll just have to measure it all up when I get it.
That is, assuming either r31 brakes won't fit behind my wheels for some reason (unlikely) & 180B brakes won't fit on the r31 hub which is something i'd need to find out.

I'm just guessing here, but r31 rotors and calipers would be larger than the 180b brakes wouldn't they? I can't remember whether the 180B brakes are vented or not but I guess the r31 ones would be... All I have is guesses/speculations though which is exactly what I didn't want in this thread so sorry!
Author:  Bozo510 [ Fri May 14, 2010 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a no-BS answer. (610 180B) + (r31 strut) = ?
I run R31 struts in my 610 coupe. The stock R31 brakes would be fine for your L series, and they fit under a 14 inch rim.

I don't know if a stock R31 strut top pcd is the same as 180b, but I'm assuming if they are coilovers you can easily change to an S13 top.

But what mydato said, you only take so much from forums, you still need to do your own measuring and research, no point whinging about, it is what it is. Free advice from mainly people who aren't mechanics.

I'd recommend bump steer spacers and spacer rings if you plan on going low.
Author:  burubado [ Fri May 14, 2010 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a no-BS answer. (610 180B) + (r31 strut) = ?
ForumJockey wrote:
I run R31 struts in my 610 coupe. The stock R31 brakes would be fine for your L series, and they fit under a 14 inch rim.

I don't know if a stock R31 strut top pcd is the same as 180b, but I'm assuming if they are coilovers you can easily change to an S13 top.

But what mydato said, you only take so much from forums, you still need to do your own measuring and research, no point whinging about, it is what it is. Free advice from mainly people who aren't mechanics.

I'd recommend bump steer spacers and spacer rings if you plan on going low.
Good to know someone else is running them.
I'm planning on using bump steer spacers, could you please enlighten me as to what spacer rings are? I haven't heard of them.

with the PCD, r31 is the same as S13 and S13 is the same as 610, so r31 should also be the same as 610. But hey, I can modify...

I appreciate the fact that the advice on here is free and most members are just hobby mechanics, but that doesn't mean I have to accept total bullshit spouted out from people who only reply so they can be first so say something as if it's a competition.

I've found that in the datsun scene there is a massive prejudice towards new ideas, as if the old way is sacred and if you veer off the path into the unknown you will be damned for eternity. What these people fail to realise is that the old ways were once new, and with new ways coming in, their cars then become easier to modify and quite often the parts involved are better, more plentiful and cheaper.
Author:  Dave [ Fri May 14, 2010 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need a no-BS answer. (610 180B) + (r31 strut) = ?
Spacer rings - the recess in the base of the struts that locates the strut precisely onto the steering arm is larger on an R31 strut than on a 180B strut.

Datsport (for one) make a spacer ring that takes up the difference in diameters so you aren't relying on just the bolts to hold it all in place.
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